p4p top 10 (revised)

[dempseyfire]

Quite a list df. Any opinions on a guy like Joe Choynski? He's almost always under everybody's radar but since he fought and beat most of the best HWs of the time despite usually only weighing about 165 I think a case could be made for him to be somewhere near the bottom the top 100 p4p. Not sure I'd have him in the top 100, but he should probably get consideration.

Another guy that always seems overlooked is the great Kid McCoy.

I knew they'd be people I simply forgot. McCoy and Marcel Cerdan should be somewhere in the top 40, I'll tie them with someone so that they're included.
Choynski should definitely be in the top 50 IMO.

[dempseyfire]

Packey McFarland not even in the top 60 ? but Michael Spinks above Ali and Monzon.

Just included him

[dempseyfire]

61) Sailor Tom Sharkey

62) Billy Miske

63) Jim Braddock

64) Rocky Marciano

65) Kid Norfolk

66) Charles Burley

67) John Henry Lewis

68) Ed Gunboat Smith

69) Young Stribling

70) Ceferino Garcia

[gambler49]

I didn't know p4p takes in2 account the w8 of HW fighters!
If so then Marciano should be number 1 and Lennox Lewis about 200.

IMO it should, but I don't think there's any real set rules for this type of thing. But it seems to me that a 200 lb fighter needs to have more skill than his opponent if his opponent weighs 250 lbs, and certainly Dempsey's complete demolition of very large top ranked HWs in his run up to the title seems more impressive than if he had been 6-4/225.

And yes, I would rank Marciano a better p4p fighter than Lewis for this simple reason. If Lewis was 185 do you think he would have had a chance against the Rock?

In my AT HW rankings I have a separate sheet where I apply a % weight factor so that I can take the ratings for the standard list and try to equalize them back to a standard weight.

Well id like to see ur HW AT 10.
I really beleive that as a BOXER their is an optimum w8, and I think it's 200-230lbs.
Now take Vitaly in his last fight. 250lbs. But his footwork was fantastic for some1 tat size. And also Vitaly would give any1 in history a good fight.
Now take Rocky who was about 180 lbs. He had the punch power and chin to give give any1 in history a good fight.
They are both 20 lbs outside of the optimum w8. But they are so great in their ability that they can overcome the disadvantage. Infact they use what they got. Rocky would fight outta crouch stance and punch to the body and guard. And Vitaly will use his reach and use the 1-2. Apart from Wlad and the smaller Lewis it's never been done so effectivly. And yea I kno Lewis was good wiv other punches....
But most of the best modern HWs were between 200 and 230. And there have been plenty of 6'5+ 240 lbs+ boxers. But they wernt all that good.
So I would be interested how your system works.

[dempseyfire]

71) Nicolino Locche

72) Ken Buchanan

73) Battling Nelson

74) Wilfred Benitez

75) Aaron Pryor

76) Lloyd Marshall

77) Joe Frazier

78) Joe Jeannette

79) Stanley Ketchel

80) Battling Battalino

[The Great John L]

dempsey, it's great to see the Gunboat get some acknowledgement as well. Another truly great fighter who beat the best HWs of his era despite usually weighing <180.

It's shaping up to be a fine list.

What are your thoughts on Charley Mitchell? Most wouldn't consider him for this list because he fought both LPR and MOQ, but he certainly did well fighting guys much larger than himself, although he did come up short aginst the Great John L.

[dempseyfire]

The final 20:

81) Abe Attell

82) Alexis Arguello

83) Antonio Cervantes

84) Terry McGovern

85) Benny Lynch

86) Georges Carpentier

87) Joey Maxim

88) Erik Morales

89) Floyd Mayweather Jr (I'm predicting many will say I'm a 'hater' for putting him so low but IMO he's never beaten another HOF fighter besides Oscar in a fight I had him losing and Marquez who was two weight classes higher than he'd ever fought. Also had him losing to Castillo the first time around. Just not impressed with the calibre of his resume in comparison to the guys above him.

90) Baby Arizmendi

91) Esteban DeJesus

92) Max Schmeling

93) Les Darcy

94) George Gardner (should probably be higher)

95) Bernard Hopkins

96) Evander Holyfield

97) Fritzie Zivic

98) Cocoa Kid

99) Larry Holmes

100) Jake LaMotta

Whew, ok, tear it up as you will. Will be the first to admit not perfect by any stretch but I don't think it's awful either.

[dempseyfire]

dempsey, it's great to see the Gunboat get some acknowledgement as well. Another truly great fighter who beat the best HWs of his era despite usually weighing <180.

It's shaping up to be a fine list.

What are your thoughts on Charley Mitchell? Most wouldn't consider him for this list because he fought both LPR and MOQ, but he certainly did well fighting guys much larger than himself, although he did come up short aginst the Great John L.

Thank you.

Michell was certainly a fine lb for lb fighter and a very hard-hitting middleweight. Consider him more to be a bare-knuckler as opposed to being of the Marquis gloved era which is why he wasn't included (also why Sullivan isn't on the list)

[The Great John L]

dempsey, it's great to see the Gunboat get some acknowledgement as well. Another truly great fighter who beat the best HWs of his era despite usually weighing <180.

It's shaping up to be a fine list.

What are your thoughts on Charley Mitchell? Most wouldn't consider him for this list because he fought both LPR and MOQ, but he certainly did well fighting guys much larger than himself, although he did come up short aginst the Great John L.

Thank you.

Michell was certainly a fine lb for lb fighter and a very hard-hitting middleweight. Consider him more to be a bare-knuckler as opposed to being of the Marquis gloved era which is why he wasn't included (also why Sullivan isn't on the list)

Not to nit pick, but Sullivan actually fought very few LPR fights and preferred the MOQ rules which allowed him more opportunity to punch without hurting his hands, and also allowed his opponents less ways to avoid his punch.

[dempseyfire]

dempsey, it's great to see the Gunboat get some acknowledgement as well. Another truly great fighter who beat the best HWs of his era despite usually weighing <180.

It's shaping up to be a fine list.

What are your thoughts on Charley Mitchell? Most wouldn't consider him for this list because he fought both LPR and MOQ, but he certainly did well fighting guys much larger than himself, although he did come up short aginst the Great John L.

Thank you.

Michell was certainly a fine lb for lb fighter and a very hard-hitting middleweight. Consider him more to be a bare-knuckler as opposed to being of the Marquis gloved era which is why he wasn't included (also why Sullivan isn't on the list)

Not to nit pick, but Sullivan actually fought very few LPR fights and preferred the MOQ rules which allowed him more opportunity to punch without hurting his hands, and also allowed his opponents less ways to avoid his punch.

Yes, but his career, full of police stoppages along with the fact that his biggest victories over Kilrain, Mitchell, and Ryan were bare-knuckle bouts, I just consider him to be of that era moreso than those that followed him.

[gambler49]

11. Roberto Duran
12. Joe Louis
13. Gene Tunney
14. Sandy Saddler
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Jimmy Wilde
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Tony Canzoneri
19. Emile Griffith
20. Larry Holmes
21. Stanley Ketchel
22. Carlos Monzon
23. Marvin Hagler
24. Rocky Marciano
25. Jake Lamotta
27. Marcel Cerdan
28. Beau Jack
29. Kid Chocolate
30. Sam Langford
31. Joe Walcott (ORIGINAL)
32. Carmen Basilio
33. Joe Calzaghe
34. Joe Gans
35. Barney Ross
36. Billy Conn
37. Pernell Whitaker
38. Ted Kid Lewis
39. Roy Jones
40. Bob Fitzsimmons