monzon vs hagler

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 20 Dec 2001, 12:05

carlos monzon vs marvin hagler. maybe the 2 best middleweights ever. who wins and why?.

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » 20 Dec 2001, 15:40

Aside from their physiques, I rate these two fairly even in just about every category (power, chin, offense, defense), with the notable exception of ring generalship. Monzon had an uncanny ability to always eventually make the opponent fight his (Monzon's) fight. On the other hand, Hagler was known for some times lacking concentration and letting the other guy dictate the terms of the fight (Seales I, Watts I, Monroe I, Antuofermo I, Duran, and Leonard to a lesser extent). Using this factor as a tie-breaker I am inclined to pick Monzon by decision, in a fight in which he dictates the pace from the outside and punishes Hagler with hard combos when he tries to get on the inside (similarly to what he did in Briscoe 2). In fact, Bennie Briscoe once said in an interview that he'd pick Monzon by decision over Hagler. I believe Bennie was their only common opponent.

Ridiculous_Ray · Post by **Ridiculous_Ray** » 20 Dec 2001, 17:58

i dunno, i think hagler had more power, maybe its just ive seen more hagler than monzon but i think he definately had power on his side, not that he'd be able to KO or knockdown monzon i think hed make monzon respect him from the start maybe monzon would dicate the fight for a few early and mid rounds but once haglers corner got on him i think he'd do what is needed to pin carlos to the ropes to a degree and make him pay.

as for the tie breaker, im not sure if thats really fair, i mean norton said that he felt frazier would beat ali in ali-frazier 3 and though he was barely wrong he was still wrong.

in the end its a great math-up and it would be a hell of a fight to watch.

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » 20 Dec 2001, 18:44

I'm using ring generalship, not Briscoe's opinion, as a tie-breaker.

Ridiculous_Ray · Post by **Ridiculous_Ray** » 21 Dec 2001, 07:19

my bad

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Mar 2008, 14:13

no school like the old school....I was going through our archives and dug up this out of the golden oldie closet.

Monzon over Hagler I.M.H.O. as well. Briscoe just might be a credible source on this discussion.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 22 Mar 2008, 14:25

The same Hagler who struggled for 15 rounds to eke out a decision against a fat, overweight, out of shape lightweight in Roberto Duran?

Boy was Hagler great !

LOL

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Mar 2008, 14:44

granberry wrote:The same Hagler who struggled for 15 rounds to eke out a decision against a fat, overweight, out of shape lightweight in Roberto Duran?

Boy was Hagler great !

LOL

Sounds like we agree on who would win this one. Someone check the temperature of Hades.....it may be a bit frosty today.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 22 Mar 2008, 15:08

granberry wrote:The same Hagler who struggled for 15 rounds to eke out a decision against a fat, overweight, out of shape lightweight in Roberto Duran?

Boy was Hagler great !

LOL

Not one of Marvin's greatest fights but he was winning the rounds.

If you score it objectively that is.

It could hardly be termed a "struggle".

He also had a bit of an off night in the first Antuerfermo fight.

And I thought he was clearly beaten by Leonard but by then he'd lost a step or two and Leonard was a modern great too whether you say so or not.

No one is perfect 100% of the time.

Balanced against that though are all the great wins.

If ones aim in life is to troll a boxing forum and disparage modern greats, then I suppose you can find something negative in every fighters career.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Mar 2008, 15:31

Collins I think you and I have discussed this one before and we are on different pages as to the outcome. But the reason this is an interesting discussion to some is because BOTH are considered great.

Using a win over a fighter such as Duran to make a case for mediocrity is an interesting angle. But from this particular contributor it is not completely unexpected.

I suppose from granberry's viewpoint Marvin would be somewhat in Monzon's corner. Being a southpaw Marvin would fall victim to punching himself in the face with the boomerang hook he has described in the past that southpaws will often fall victim to.

And of course your support of Marvin in this case is probably one more nail in the coffin of our little forum as well. Since we both can not be the problem here.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 22 Mar 2008, 18:20

collins needs to learn what a LIGHTWEIGHT is .

LOL

bobbyd · Post by **bobbyd** » 22 Mar 2008, 19:13

BoxBuzz wrote:Collins I think you and I have discussed this one before and we are on different pages as to the outcome. But the reason this is an interesting discussion to some is because BOTH are considered great.

Using a win over a fighter such as Duran to make a case for mediocrity is an interesting angle. But from this particular contributor it is not completely unexpected.

I suppose from granberry's viewpoint Marvin would be somewhat in Monzon's corner. Being a southpaw Marvin would fall victim to punching himself in the face with the boomerang hook he has described in the past that southpaws will often fall victim to.

And of course your support of Marvin in this case is probably one more nail in the coffin of our little forum as well. Since we both can not be the problem here.

dont forget about Hagler's unspectacular decision win over Marcos Geraldo,who Hearns flattened in one round 2 years later.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 22 Mar 2008, 19:17

bobbyd wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Collins I think you and I have discussed this one before and we are on different pages as to the outcome. But the reason this is an interesting discussion to some is because BOTH are considered great.

Using a win over a fighter such as Duran to make a case for mediocrity is an interesting angle. But from this particular contributor it is not completely unexpected.

I suppose from granberry's viewpoint Marvin would be somewhat in Monzon's corner. Being a southpaw Marvin would fall victim to punching himself in the face with the boomerang hook he has described in the past that southpaws will often fall victim to.

And of course your support of Marvin in this case is probably one more nail in the coffin of our little forum as well. Since we both can not be the problem here.

dont forget about Hagler's unspectacular decision win over Marcos Geraldo,who Hearns flattened in one round 2 years later.

Caveman Lee flattened Geraldo in one round

during the same time period that Hagler and Leonard struggled to decision wins over the very same Geraldo.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Mar 2008, 19:28

Well in the past the majority of our contributors pick Hagler to beat Monzon. I've never bought it. I think Monzon is true ring genius and he can change his plan to fit the need. I think he would overcome any strategy or technique Hagler could come up with and end up with a fairly dominating performance over Marvin. When Bennie speaks I think it would behoove us to listen on this one. Certainly he would be in a position to be taken seriously on this matter.

I doubt I would pick anyone to KO Marvin, though I think the reason Tommy didn't get the job done was a fluke of physics only partly due to Mavin's noggin.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 22 Mar 2008, 20:00

I cannot go past Monzon, here. Each were intelligent, capable warriors & I doubt anyone is getting stopped or KO'd, though if someone were, it'd probably be Monzon. In any event, I do feel Monzon makes Hagler fight his fight moreso than vice-versa, & when you pit two brilliant fighters together, an advantage like that can be the difference. Monzon is the more complete fighter for mine, & that's saying a lot.

Monzon UD15 Hagler.

nobudius · Post by **nobudius** » 22 Mar 2008, 20:49

I know Monzon was listed at 6'0" or so, but does anybody know his exact measurements? For instance, his reach? The only time I've seen Monzon & Hagler next to each other, albeit briefly, was in Marvin's bout against Roldan. He was all limbs, & it showed the differences in height between the two.

The only other fighter I know that combined Monzon's kind of build with strength is Sandy Saddler. Tooth picks that had brute strength.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 22 Mar 2008, 21:01

nobudius wrote:I know Monzon was listed at 6'0" or so, but does anybody know his exact measurements? For instance, his reach? The only time I've seen Monzon & Hagler next to each other, albeit briefly, was in Marvin's bout against Roldan. He was all limbs, & it showed the differences in height between the two.

The only other fighter I know that combined Monzon's kind of build with strength is Sandy Saddler. Tooth picks that had brute strength.

Panama Al Brown.

Bob Foster.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 22 Mar 2008, 21:23

When Briscoe fought Hagler he was past his very best. Washed up. Hagler is often criticized for the Duran fight, but we tend to forget that Duran was a hell of a fighter. Duran was in great shape for that fight and fought with lots of guts, but the SPEED made the difference in the fight, which Hagler had the advantage. Until round 13, I had Duran leading. Hagler as a great champion, solved the puzzle by FIGHTING LIKE A REAL MAN.

Even though, Duran was overweight, washed up, and fighting 25 pounds of his original weight class, he gave a brilliant performance in my opinion.

bobbyd · Post by **bobbyd** » 22 Mar 2008, 23:31

granberry wrote:
bobbyd wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Collins I think you and I have discussed this one before and we are on different pages as to the outcome. But the reason this is an interesting discussion to some is because BOTH are considered great.

Using a win over a fighter such as Duran to make a case for mediocrity is an interesting angle. But from this particular contributor it is not completely unexpected.

I suppose from granberry's viewpoint Marvin would be somewhat in Monzon's corner. Being a southpaw Marvin would fall victim to punching himself in the face with the boomerang hook he has described in the past that southpaws will often fall victim to.

And of course your support of Marvin in this case is probably one more nail in the coffin of our little forum as well. Since we both can not be the problem here.

dont forget about Hagler's unspectacular decision win over Marcos Geraldo,who Hearns flattened in one round 2 years later.
Caveman Lee flattened Geraldo in one round

during the same time period that Hagler and Leonard struggled to decision wins over the very same Geraldo.

Yup.Thanks.I forgot to mention about That Awesome Caveman pulling off the trick as well against Mr.Geraldo.

I seriously dont think that Hagler had the adaptability to deal with such a versatile warrior that Monzon was.Just too many variables in Monzon's Offensive And Defensive arsenal.

I continue to feel that Hearns would've won a rematch with Hagler as well.
8)

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 23 Mar 2008, 03:11

bobbyd wrote:
granberry wrote:
bobbyd wrote:
dont forget about Hagler's unspectacular decision win over Marcos Geraldo,who Hearns flattened in one round 2 years later.
Caveman Lee flattened Geraldo in one round

during the same time period that Hagler and Leonard struggled to decision wins over the very same Geraldo.
Yup.Thanks.I forgot to mention about That Awesome Caveman pulling off the trick as well against Mr.Geraldo.

I seriously dont think that Hagler had the adaptability to deal with such a versatile warrior that Monzon was.Just too many variables in Monzon's Offensive And Defensive arsenal.

I continue to feel that Hearns would've won a rematch with Hagler as well.
8)

Yeah, the time they did fight left some doubt as to who was the better man at 160 that night didn't it?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 Mar 2008, 10:57

Collins2000 wrote:
bobbyd wrote:
granberry wrote: Caveman Lee flattened Geraldo in one round

during the same time period that Hagler and Leonard struggled to decision wins over the very same Geraldo.
Yup.Thanks.I forgot to mention about That Awesome Caveman pulling off the trick as well against Mr.Geraldo.

I seriously dont think that Hagler had the adaptability to deal with such a versatile warrior that Monzon was.Just too many variables in Monzon's Offensive And Defensive arsenal.

I continue to feel that Hearns would've won a rematch with Hagler as well.
8)

Yeah, the time they did fight left some doubt as to who was the better man at 160 that night didn't it?

Hmm where might that doubt be found? ( I suspect your kidding here).

Keep in mind that I suspect Duran would have done better against Tommy in another go round. (Though I understand when I say that it's with the full understanding that Roberto couldn't have done much worse in their match so doing better wouldn't take a lot). I think another Hagler Hearns fight would have been a longer fight I'm not sure I believe the outcome would have been much different. I'm not sure Tommy would have been patient enough to attempt a points win...and he eventually pays the price again.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 23 Mar 2008, 16:27

hagler would have chopped hearns down again. knowing he had done it once would have fuelled his desire to repeat it.
monzon would have outpointed him though.

two best middleweights ever? i think not.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 23 Mar 2008, 16:47

harrygreb wrote:hagler would have chopped hearns down again. knowing he had done it once would have fuelled his desire to repeat it.
monzon would have outpointed him though.

two best middleweights ever? i think not.

I agree. Hagler for me over Hearns every time.

To ignore empirical evidence seems to me to be wishful thinking.

Elton John · Post by **Elton John** » 23 Mar 2008, 18:50

I believe Tommy was the favorite to beat marvin following the Duran fight. said Tommy was too fast for him and punched too hard, that Marvin would never get a shot off. For sure Tommy was much faster than Monzon and a bit taller so I'm going to pick Marvin in this one.

I think Marvin would go after him and not let him box at a convenient pace as he let Duran do. I dont think Monzon could withstand Marvin's incredible power or southpaw jab. This is Marvin's fight all the way with the possible exception of the first two rounds. Similar to the first Obel fight where Marvin is adjusting to Obel's height and sizing him up at long range, Marvin then seeks to test his chin sometme around the 4th and strikes paydirt.

Timing one of Monzon's lazy left jabs, marvin comes over the top with a demonic right hook, and a violent torque of Monzon's head. For the first time in Monzon's career, he is a struck a lethal blow from which he cannot recover. Monzon cannot clear his head in time. Marvin sensing his opportunity, goes after his prey like a doberman after raw meat, attacking with unbridled ferocity and without mercy.

Striking at full force, lefts and rights rain down upon Monzon's unprotected head until his lifeless form collapses (similar to the conclusion of Pryor-Arguello)

The postfight commentary: "Monzon was brave in there. TOO brave for his own good" and "The ref should have definitely jumped in to save Carlos from those last few blows"

Parting from Larry Merchant: "Tonight we saw the best in boxing and the worst. We can also say we saw the best in Marvin seems to come out when he lets the animal instinct take over "

Marvin Hagler: "Tonight you saw the best in Marvelous Marvin". I knew I had him with that punch because when I landed it it felt beautiful on my hand then I just started putting the combinations together. I felt as though the ref should have stepped in a little before.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 23 Mar 2008, 19:02

Elton John wrote:I believe Tommy was the favorite to beat marvin following the Duran fight. said Tommy was too fast for him and punched too hard, that Marvin would never get a shot off. For sure Tommy was much faster than Monzon and a bit taller so I'm going to pick Marvin in this one.

I think Marvin would go after him and not let him box at a convenient pace as he let Duran do. I dont think Monzon could withstand Marvin's incredible power or southpaw jab. This is Marvin's fight all the way with the possible exception of the first two rounds. Similar to the first Obel fight where Marvin is adjusting to Obel's height and sizing him up at long range, Marvin then seeks to test his chin sometme around the 4th and strikes paydirt.

Timing one of Monzon's lazy left jabs, marvin comes over the top with a demonic right hook, and a violent torque of Monzon's head. For the first time in Monzon's career, he is a struck a lethal blow from which he cannot recover. Monzon cannot clear his head in time. Marvin sensing his opportunity, goes after his prey like a doberman after raw meat, attacking with unbridled ferocity and without mercy.

Striking at full force, lefts and rights rain down upon Monzon's unprotected head until his lifeless form collapses (similar to the conclusion of Pryor-Arguello)

The postfight commentary: "Monzon was brave in there. TOO brave for his own good" and "The ref should have definitely jumped in to save Carlos from those last few blows"

Parting from Larry Merchant: "Tonight we saw the best in boxing and the worst. We can also say we saw the best in Marvin seems to come out when he lets the animal instinct take over "

Marvin Hagler: "Tonight you saw the best in Marvelous Marvin". I knew I had him with that punch because when I landed it it felt beautiful on my hand then I just started putting the combinations together. I felt as though the ref should have stepped in a little before.

Now give your your fairy tale version of a fight between Hagler

and a fat, overweight, out of shape lightweight Roberto Duran.

LOL